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How do we feed a city?

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How do we feed a city?

Post by anon on Wed Jul 27, 2011 4:01 pm

I mentioned in a few other threads, I'm a cook, by trade, that's what I do. I'm all for opening a mess hall or something, a way to feed a bunch of people at first, like a cafeteria, maybe one day when we get a stable food economy, just having a town restaurant.

But feeding a city is no easy task, we need to look into food sources.

We could look at getting grants by feeding the entire city locally on our own.

If you think this doesn't sound like a big deal, you're mistaken. This would mean most of us would be eating an almost vegetarian diet. It would take time to grow the food we need to eat, and we can't forget that this is South Dakota. The climate is shit, what we'd actually be able to grow would be really limited.

If we decided to just ride on the Sysco train, this would mean someone needs to open a grocery or some shit.

I don't really have a great idea of how this would all happen, but I would like to discuss it.

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Re: How do we feed a city?

Post by FluffySheepz on Wed Jul 27, 2011 4:12 pm

Many ways to go about this. The most simple is to grow our own food. Which would take time. Shipping in food would take money. You can go to farms and have food delivered. This you can probably get for dirt cheap. That takes money. So the easiest thing right now would be at first everyone provides their own food. Till the infrastructure is in place to allow sustainability.

It's not hard to feed 200 people shitty food. It's hard to feed 200 people what they want to eat.
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Re: How do we feed a city?

Post by anon on Wed Jul 27, 2011 4:17 pm

FluffySheepz wrote:Many ways to go about this. The most simple is to grow our own food. Which would take time. Shipping in food would take money. You can go to farms and have food delivered. This you can probably get for dirt cheap. That takes money. So the easiest thing right now would be at first everyone provides their own food. Till the infrastructure is in place to allow sustainability.

It's not hard to feed 200 people shitty food. It's hard to feed 200 people what they want to eat.

I don't know why everyone is underestimating the whole food part of the equation.

Keeping 200 people (most of them basement dwellers) alive is not as easy as you think.

Getting farms to deliver food is not dirt cheap. Starting a farm is not dirt cheap, shipping foo in is not dirt cheap. Every way we look at it, it's going to need to be a huge factor of the logistics of starting a town.

This is a serious caveat of starting up a ghost town.
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Re: How do we feed a city?

Post by FluffySheepz on Wed Jul 27, 2011 4:23 pm

anon wrote:
FluffySheepz wrote:Many ways to go about this. The most simple is to grow our own food. Which would take time. Shipping in food would take money. You can go to farms and have food delivered. This you can probably get for dirt cheap. That takes money. So the easiest thing right now would be at first everyone provides their own food. Till the infrastructure is in place to allow sustainability.

It's not hard to feed 200 people shitty food. It's hard to feed 200 people what they want to eat.

I don't know why everyone is underestimating the whole food part of the equation.

Keeping 200 people (most of them basement dwellers) alive is not as easy as you think.

Getting farms to deliver food is not dirt cheap. Starting a farm is not dirt cheap, shipping foo in is not dirt cheap. Every way we look at it, it's going to need to be a huge factor of the logistics of starting a town.

This is a serious caveat of starting up a ghost town.

I understand the logistics. I am was not saying it's something simple to do. Either way it's going to take money or luck.

What I was trying to say is you could an insane amount of food for dirt cheap ( 50k ) that is terrible food but will keep people fed for long enough to get the farms going.
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Re: How do we feed a city?

Post by anon on Wed Jul 27, 2011 4:41 pm

I think we should do some research on this, getting a general plan banged out.

What would everyone prefer we do?

Personally, I want us to grow some food, I want to see how we can do with farming.

But I don't think it will be enough. I think maybe a combination of a few different methods.

I want to see serious figures. I want to know what we're going to be looking at.
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Re: How do we feed a city?

Post by cherokeeroodypoo on Wed Jul 27, 2011 5:41 pm

I have said this before but I am a Farm and Ranch kid from here in Oklahoma, I know the great plains like the back of my hand, Dakota and Northern oklahoma share a lot of similarities in planting seasons and growing season. with the allotted 36 acres outside of town I can feasibly raise 6 head of momma cows and artificially inseminate them and they will drop 6 calves which we in turn could feed and either sell on the veal market OR raise for another year, get them fat and slaughter for the towns benefit.
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Re: How do we feed a city?

Post by cherokeeroodypoo on Wed Jul 27, 2011 5:43 pm

anon wrote:
FluffySheepz wrote:Many ways to go about this. The most simple is to grow our own food. Which would take time. Shipping in food would take money. You can go to farms and have food delivered. This you can probably get for dirt cheap. That takes money. So the easiest thing right now would be at first everyone provides their own food. Till the infrastructure is in place to allow sustainability.

It's not hard to feed 200 people shitty food. It's hard to feed 200 people what they want to eat.

I don't know why everyone is underestimating the whole food part of the equation.

Keeping 200 people (most of them basement dwellers) alive is not as easy as you think.

Getting farms to deliver food is not dirt cheap. Starting a farm is not dirt cheap, shipping foo in is not dirt cheap. Every way we look at it, it's going to need to be a huge factor of the logistics of starting a town.

This is a serious caveat of starting up a ghost town.

Starting a farm is not cheap, it requires that we buy the grain that we wish to raise for each growing and planting season, then we buy the equipment needed to plant said grain, then we buy containers to store said grain once we harvest. Not a cheap venture but it is feasible
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Re: How do we feed a city?

Post by anon on Wed Jul 27, 2011 7:00 pm

cherokeeroodypoo wrote:I have said this before but I am a Farm and Ranch kid from here in Oklahoma, I know the great plains like the back of my hand, Dakota and Northern oklahoma share a lot of similarities in planting seasons and growing season. with the allotted 36 acres outside of town I can feasibly raise 6 head of momma cows and artificially inseminate them and they will drop 6 calves which we in turn could feed and either sell on the veal market OR raise for another year, get them fat and slaughter for the towns benefit.

I don't think any of this is really realistic. Trying to feed the appetite for meat will be expensive, if we wanted to sustain ourselves, I can't really imagine it even being fully possible. Selling six calves to the veal industry is like nothing. In terms of bringing in money, it's like a neighborhood bake sale.

Starting a farm is not cheap, it requires that we buy the grain that we wish to raise for each growing and planting season, then we buy the equipment needed to plant said grain, then we buy containers to store said grain once we harvest. Not a cheap venture but it is feasible

I don't think it's nearly as feasible as just shipping food in, like everywhere else. I think definitely farming could be a worthwhile venture, but I don't know if it will be enough on its own.
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Re: How do we feed a city?

Post by Patrick on Wed Jul 27, 2011 7:30 pm

Have we considered Aquaponics? Fish poop in water, water is used as hydroponic fluid to feed fish, water is cleaned by plant absorption fish. Leftover plant matter is composted, worms are harvested for fish food.
80-90% less water use. Quicker growing times(seedling to full leafage lettuce = 4 weeks.)

Vegetables AND fish

Possibly fruit like berries and shit

Only mechanical part of system would be a pump.

Multiple aquaponic systems produce a shit ton of food = awsome.

Once up and running it would need minimal maintenance and harvesting/planting.

Just my buck 20.

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Re: How do we feed a city?

Post by anon on Wed Jul 27, 2011 7:40 pm

Patrick wrote:Have we considered Aquaponics? Fish poop in water, water is used as hydroponic fluid to feed fish, water is cleaned by plant absorption fish. Leftover plant matter is composted, worms are harvested for fish food.
80-90% less water use. Quicker growing times(seedling to full leafage lettuce = 4 weeks.)

Vegetables AND fish

Possibly fruit like berries and shit

Only mechanical part of system would be a pump.

Multiple aquaponic systems produce a shit ton of food = awsome.

Once up and running it would need minimal maintenance and harvesting/planting.

Just my buck 20.

I've heard a little bit about this, and I think it's very cool. Definitely coolest thing I've heard about it is it being used to grow algea to use as an alternative fuel source. Has the potential to be sustainable and is very realistically practical.

I'm just not sure if we can take the idea on paper and use it to feed a ton of people.

I'd rather start doing things that are for sure going to work and integrate in the experiemental stuff.
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Re: How do we feed a city?

Post by FluffySheepz on Wed Jul 27, 2011 7:40 pm

Patrick wrote:Have we considered Aquaponics? Fish poop in water, water is used as hydroponic fluid to feed fish, water is cleaned by plant absorption fish. Leftover plant matter is composted, worms are harvested for fish food.
80-90% less water use. Quicker growing times(seedling to full leafage lettuce = 4 weeks.)

Vegetables AND fish

Possibly fruit like berries and shit

Only mechanical part of system would be a pump.

Multiple aquaponic systems produce a shit ton of food = awsome.

Once up and running it would need minimal maintenance and harvesting/planting.

Just my buck 20.


this is a great idea. I can build the pumps no problem as well. I use to work in my dads pool shop as a kid. I can maintain and build nearly any closed water system.
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Re: How do we feed a city?

Post by anon on Wed Jul 27, 2011 7:41 pm

Really? Well shit. Alright. Would you be willing to work with me to draw up a plan of how to pull this off?
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Re: How do we feed a city?

Post by Patrick on Wed Jul 27, 2011 7:58 pm

Alrighty first off a couple of links to see some of the systems already in use and show this ain't bullshit.

Check these links



To build a Aquaponics farm you require A fish pond/pool, a pump, a holding tank for the water about to be flushed into the plants, and plant trays(with small gravel or some other substrate).


See the videos and tell me what you think.

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Re: How do we feed a city?

Post by Patrick on Wed Jul 27, 2011 8:02 pm

Damn, registered.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/28/business/energy-environment/28iht-rbofish.html?ref=urbanagriculture
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W7wqpR8IiFc&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CU9x_W9X-tM

These links.

Edit:
A couple more links.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jV9CCxdkOng&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zNttQC5o7XQ&feature=related

And yes I would love to work on this with you.

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Re: How do we feed a city?

Post by FluffySheepz on Thu Jul 28, 2011 11:04 am

Patrick wrote:Damn, registered.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/28/business/energy-environment/28iht-rbofish.html?ref=urbanagriculture
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W7wqpR8IiFc&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CU9x_W9X-tM

These links.

Edit:
A couple more links.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jV9CCxdkOng&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zNttQC5o7XQ&feature=related

And yes I would love to work on this with you.

those systems seem very easy to build. I can get the PVC for nearly free. I know the owner of the largest provider in the world of whole sale pool supplies. In fact chances are you have bought from someone who uses them for this type of shit. The pumps are easy to get. The systems are easy to set up. I can start making some AutoCAD designs of small systems. And then we can scale up. The biggest worry is the heating systems. I have built some - they are expensive. A series of copper tubing running through the green house with water @ 80-90 degrees running 22 miles an hour can heat the place though... But that takes more power. We will have to brain storm about what to do in the winters.
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Re: How do we feed a city?

Post by MultiAnonymousG on Thu Jul 28, 2011 12:43 pm

Patrick wrote:Have we considered Aquaponics? Fish poop in water, water is used as hydroponic fluid to feed fish, water is cleaned by plant absorption fish. Leftover plant matter is composted, worms are harvested for fish food.
80-90% less water use. Quicker growing times(seedling to full leafage lettuce = 4 weeks.)

Vegetables AND fish

Possibly fruit like berries and shit

Only mechanical part of system would be a pump.

Multiple aquaponic systems produce a shit ton of food = awsome.

Once up and running it would need minimal maintenance and harvesting/planting.

Just my buck 20.

how often would we be able to harvest the vegetables?
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Re: How do we feed a city?

Post by loganrugbyman on Thu Jul 28, 2011 4:43 pm

I run a business in Utah (which is somewhat similar to SD, cold winters, shorter summers) where we go around and farm out of people's back yards. Most of what we do is vegetables, but it's the same to do corn/wheat.

The simple fact is that it is impossible to feasibly raise meat. If people want it, go buy the subsidized shit, but it is very possible to feed people doing veggies/grains alone.

An acre is 43,560 sq. ft, and some calculations state:
vegan food -- 3000 sq. ft.
a few eggs/week -- 3,500 sq. ft.
one chicken/week -- 24,300 sq. ft.
one cow/year -- 67,300 sq. ft.
So each person eating vegan would need 3000 sq ft per year. Makes much more sense than raising fucking cows.

So yes, it would be a lot of work, but I manage just over 6 acres with only me and 3 employees. It's definitely possible to feed everyone, but you're going vegan if it's going to make sense.

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Re: How do we feed a city?

Post by Dmanrlz2 on Thu Jul 28, 2011 5:52 pm

You dont need that much area for chickens, I can vouch for that. We keep and maintain chickens at my house. We, as of right now average around 5 eggs per day from around 6 or 7 chickens that live on far less than half an acre, If we kept a stable chicken flock we could get a serious amount of eggs per day. Also if you guys want some well researched data on ways to feed large amounts of people there is a novel called "Dies the Fire" which is about society collapsing and small groups of people trying to band together to survive. While it is fiction it is well researched and could be quite helpfull
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Re: How do we feed a city?

Post by Mephisto893 on Thu Jul 28, 2011 5:56 pm

Dmanrlz2 wrote:You dont need that much area for chickens, I can vouch for that. We keep and maintain chickens at my house. We, as of right now average around 5 eggs per day from around 6 or 7 chickens that live on far less than half an acre, If we kept a stable chicken flock we could get a serious amount of eggs per day. Also if you guys want some well researched data on ways to feed large amounts of people there is a novel called "Dies the Fire" which is about society collapsing and small groups of people trying to band together to survive. While it is fiction it is well researched and could be quite helpfull

i have that book. GREAT fiction read. what they did was basically revert to a community mindset, where everyone helped with whatever needed to be done. it doesn't really go into the specifics of the farming and stuff, except that they went all the way back to horse drawn plows and stuff
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Re: How do we feed a city?

Post by anon on Thu Jul 28, 2011 6:01 pm

loganrugbyman wrote:I run a business in Utah (which is somewhat similar to SD, cold winters, shorter summers) where we go around and farm out of people's back yards. Most of what we do is vegetables, but it's the same to do corn/wheat.

The simple fact is that it is impossible to feasibly raise meat. If people want it, go buy the subsidized shit, but it is very possible to feed people doing veggies/grains alone.

An acre is 43,560 sq. ft, and some calculations state:
vegan food -- 3000 sq. ft.
a few eggs/week -- 3,500 sq. ft.
one chicken/week -- 24,300 sq. ft.
one cow/year -- 67,300 sq. ft.
So each person eating vegan would need 3000 sq ft per year. Makes much more sense than raising fucking cows.

So yes, it would be a lot of work, but I manage just over 6 acres with only me and 3 employees. It's definitely possible to feed everyone, but you're going vegan if it's going to make sense.

I've lived in Colorado out in the middle of nowhere. I think you might be underestimating SD. Utah has it pretty easy comparitively for farming.

But I like the figures you have here, definitely super useful, we just need to remember we might not be looking at a whole lot of viable land, and the land we have might not grow very much. I agree completely with what you're saying about meat, but I can imagine some folks might have a tough time adjusting to that right off the bat.

I want to focus more time on getting the figures together and getting down to some serious food costing; figured I'd ask one of my old chef instructors what it's like to do three meals a day, 200 people, seven days a week. But it'll have to wait until later this weekend or after Tuesday at the latest--got a lot going on at the moment, having trouble finding the time to get all my real world shit done.
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Re: How do we feed a city?

Post by Dmanrlz2 on Fri Jul 29, 2011 12:27 am

Mephisto893 wrote:
Dmanrlz2 wrote:You dont need that much area for chickens, I can vouch for that. We keep and maintain chickens at my house. We, as of right now average around 5 eggs per day from around 6 or 7 chickens that live on far less than half an acre, If we kept a stable chicken flock we could get a serious amount of eggs per day. Also if you guys want some well researched data on ways to feed large amounts of people there is a novel called "Dies the Fire" which is about society collapsing and small groups of people trying to band together to survive. While it is fiction it is well researched and could be quite helpfull

i have that book. GREAT fiction read. what they did was basically revert to a community mindset, where everyone helped with whatever needed to be done. it doesn't really go into the specifics of the farming and stuff, except that they went all the way back to horse drawn plows and stuff

Wow! You are the first person that i have known that has actually read that book. I do wish they would have went into more detail, but the basics for what type of Gov we would want and some small tidbits about survival could come in quite handy.
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Re: How do we feed a city?

Post by Mephisto893 on Fri Jul 29, 2011 5:32 am

i agree. i'll re-read it after i finish my summe reading. i'm an avid reader of non fairy fiction and realistic scifi. Crichton type stuff. i've actually considered running a library there, haven't decided if it'd ever be used or not.

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Re: How do we feed a city?

Post by cherokeeroodypoo on Fri Jul 29, 2011 5:42 am

loganrugbyman wrote:I run a business in Utah (which is somewhat similar to SD, cold winters, shorter summers) where we go around and farm out of people's back yards. Most of what we do is vegetables, but it's the same to do corn/wheat.

The simple fact is that it is impossible to feasibly raise meat. If people want it, go buy the subsidized shit, but it is very possible to feed people doing veggies/grains alone.

An acre is 43,560 sq. ft, and some calculations state:
vegan food -- 3000 sq. ft.
a few eggs/week -- 3,500 sq. ft.
one chicken/week -- 24,300 sq. ft.
one cow/year -- 67,300 sq. ft.
So each person eating vegan would need 3000 sq ft per year. Makes much more sense than raising fucking cows.

So yes, it would be a lot of work, but I manage just over 6 acres with only me and 3 employees. It's definitely possible to feed everyone, but you're going vegan if it's going to make sense.


uhh not just no but fuck no, I refuse to eat vegan pussy herbivore bullshit. I will literally kill for red meat if deprived for a certain amount of time. BTW a normal momma cow requires 10 acres a year so you're a bit off there sir.

I'm tired so I'll make it short. Vegan will not work, we can grow vertically allowing the use of remaining land for poultry and housing as well as raising calves and such. I still am all for an indoor arena/barn to raise animals (sheep, chickens, calves) during the winter. We not just can but should and will if I can convince people to grow vertical gardens, shits awesome, clears out space and can grow ten times more in half the space!

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Re: How do we feed a city?

Post by Hobo on Fri Jul 29, 2011 1:06 pm

cherokeeroodypoo wrote:
loganrugbyman wrote:I run a business in Utah (which is somewhat similar to SD, cold winters, shorter summers) where we go around and farm out of people's back yards. Most of what we do is vegetables, but it's the same to do corn/wheat.

The simple fact is that it is impossible to feasibly raise meat. If people want it, go buy the subsidized shit, but it is very possible to feed people doing veggies/grains alone.

An acre is 43,560 sq. ft, and some calculations state:
vegan food -- 3000 sq. ft.
a few eggs/week -- 3,500 sq. ft.
one chicken/week -- 24,300 sq. ft.
one cow/year -- 67,300 sq. ft.
So each person eating vegan would need 3000 sq ft per year. Makes much more sense than raising fucking cows.

So yes, it would be a lot of work, but I manage just over 6 acres with only me and 3 employees. It's definitely possible to feed everyone, but you're going vegan if it's going to make sense.


uhh not just no but fuck no, I refuse to eat vegan pussy herbivore bullshit. I will literally kill for red meat if deprived for a certain amount of time. BTW a normal momma cow requires 10 acres a year so you're a bit off there sir.

I'm tired so I'll make it short. Vegan will not work, we can grow vertically allowing the use of remaining land for poultry and housing as well as raising calves and such. I still am all for an indoor arena/barn to raise animals (sheep, chickens, calves) during the winter. We not just can but should and will if I can convince people to grow vertical gardens, shits awesome, clears out space and can grow ten times more in half the space!

I understand the need for meat, I'm a big meat eater myself, but it should be obvious with how you corrected his 1.5 acre number with 10 acres why raising meat is problematic. It doesn't really matter how much space we save growing other food in more space efficient ways because meat animals eat a ton and take up a lot of room. If you are okay with only having meat periodically something can be done potentially with chickens and potentially with the aquaponics fish. However, given that we only have so much space it would be unrealistic to plan on having a steady meat supply, at least at first.

But hey, if we are lucky there will be things to shoot in a reasonable distance or at the worst we could trade the organic vegan pussy herbivore bullshit for a man's meal.
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Re: How do we feed a city?

Post by Patrick on Fri Jul 29, 2011 1:33 pm

Been thinking.... We could do fish, chicken eggs and pork easily enough.

Pigs would be fed table scraps, and depending on amount of food waste we could support differeing numbers of pigs.

Also to the question on how much food we would get from aquaponics, we would stagger planting, so we have groups harvested each week.

IE if lettuce takes 6 weeks to grow we would plant a group every 6 weeks and replace them as we harvest them.



Also we should totally plant orchards of fruit and nut trees

Oh and honey bees.
mmmm honey....

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Re: How do we feed a city?

Post by anon on Fri Jul 29, 2011 7:35 pm

Hobo wrote:
cherokeeroodypoo wrote:
uhh not just no but fuck no, I refuse to eat vegan pussy herbivore bullshit. I will literally kill for red meat if deprived for a certain amount of time. BTW a normal momma cow requires 10 acres a year so you're a bit off there sir.

I'm tired so I'll make it short. Vegan will not work, we can grow vertically allowing the use of remaining land for poultry and housing as well as raising calves and such. I still am all for an indoor arena/barn to raise animals (sheep, chickens, calves) during the winter. We not just can but should and will if I can convince people to grow vertical gardens, shits awesome, clears out space and can grow ten times more in half the space!

I understand the need for meat, I'm a big meat eater myself, but it should be obvious with how you corrected his 1.5 acre number with 10 acres why raising meat is problematic. It doesn't really matter how much space we save growing other food in more space efficient ways because meat animals eat a ton and take up a lot of room. If you are okay with only having meat periodically something can be done potentially with chickens and potentially with the aquaponics fish. However, given that we only have so much space it would be unrealistic to plan on having a steady meat supply, at least at first.

But hey, if we are lucky there will be things to shoot in a reasonable distance or at the worst we could trade the organic vegan pussy herbivore bullshit for a man's meal.

Alright, let me put it this way.

It takes ten pounds of grain to put on ONE pound weight for a cow. Yes, that is statistically accurate.

I am very against the idea of raising cattle for meat. It's inefficient and largely a waste of time. I have already been under the assumption that we would be shipping our meat in, you know, considering that in America we have CAFOs and getting meat is stupidly inexpensive at the cost of the consumer, and stupidly retardedly expensive for the farmers. Have you ever wondered how at a McDonald's a cheeseburger can cost $1 but a salad is $6? $1 cheeseburgers are't $1 because that's what the meat is worth--fun fact, you get your meat cheap because American farmers get fucked in the ass--they make pennies for every pound of meat sold.

There is a lot wrong with farming in America today.

Also, I don't really want to raise pigs. I've dealt with them before, and really all I've ever gathered from them is that they're too smart, too loud, and they shit a lot.

That said, no one is going to ask you to convert to a vegan diet--converting to a vegetarian diet would be damn hard enough as it is.

We will, however, tell you that there very well may be some days where you will have to go without eating meat. And it's also a pretty safe bet that you're not getting a solid pound of meat every day.
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Re: How do we feed a city?

Post by Moxi on Mon Aug 01, 2011 1:20 pm

Um as to the meat issue, what about hunting?
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Re: How do we feed a city?

Post by Moxi on Mon Aug 01, 2011 1:31 pm

And to all the people suggesting hydroponics or aqua or whatever and trees and such
we need to build greenhouses, and water centers,these things arent cheap and cant be done in the basement. trees in sd wouldnt LAST all year, we need a biodome ish setting that we can alternate the interior season in each chamber to try having food all year round, also, most saplings that we'd buy wont fruit for 2 or three years, IF they survive
A good idea would be grafted tress as well, to save space, apples pears and oranges can be spliced together successfully to all grow on the same 'tree'

We had one in my school, it looked weird as a sapling, but the second year it flowered and had a few unediable fruits, i wonder what it looks like now...


also, prawn are a good idea to farming, as well as snakehead fish, they are highly prolific, can live in just about any water, and eat just about anything
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Re: How do we feed a city?

Post by LetsDoThis on Mon Aug 01, 2011 7:12 pm

Moxi wrote:Um as to the meat issue, what about hunting?

If you look at the pictures of the land you can see that it will not support hunting.
Bare plains as far as the eye can see.
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Re: How do we feed a city?

Post by cherokeeroodypoo on Mon Aug 01, 2011 7:21 pm

LetsDoThis wrote:
Moxi wrote:Um as to the meat issue, what about hunting?

If you look at the pictures of the land you can see that it will not support hunting.
Bare plains as far as the eye can see.

are you from the midwest, especially the great plains? if not then I'm not holding your statement in high regards. BTW this land is primo area for grouse, quail, pheasant, deer, antelope, elk, turkey, bighorn sheep, duck and geese, as well it's very viable fishing land.

btw, I live in the midwest and have hunted in SD, they have some big ass deer man

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